Committee for the Abolition of Illegitimate Debt

You became well-known for your work on the debt crisis in the 1980s and 1990s. Then it was a crisis for developing countries; now it seems to be mainly afflicting developed countries? How do you explain this?

The causes of the debt crisis in third world countries were not the same as now. In the 1970s, much borrowed money went into armaments, middle and upper class luxury spending on imports, rising oil prices, and white elephant development projects—in other words unproductive spending. Also the US suddenly increased interest rates Interest rates When A lends money to B, B repays the amount lent by A (the capital) as well as a supplementary sum known as interest, so that A has an interest in agreeing to this financial operation. The interest is determined by the interest rate, which may be high or low. To take a very simple example: if A borrows 100 million dollars for 10 years at a fixed interest rate of 5%, the first year he will repay a tenth of the capital initially borrowed (10 million dollars) plus 5% of the capital owed, i.e. 5 million dollars, that is a total of 15 million dollars. In the second year, he will again repay 10% of the capital borrowed, but the 5% now only applies to the remaining 90 million dollars still due, i.e. 4.5 million dollars, or a total of 14.5 million dollars. And so on, until the tenth year when he will repay the last 10 million dollars, plus 5% of that remaining 10 million dollars, i.e. 0.5 million dollars, giving a total of 10.5 million dollars. Over 10 years, the total amount repaid will come to 127.5 million dollars. The repayment of the capital is not usually made in equal instalments. In the initial years, the repayment concerns mainly the interest, and the proportion of capital repaid increases over the years. In this case, if repayments are stopped, the capital still due is higher…

The nominal interest rate is the rate at which the loan is contracted. The real interest rate is the nominal rate reduced by the rate of inflation. unilaterally in 1981 by a huge percentage.

John Perkins in Confessions of an Economic Hit Man argues there was a deliberate policy to indebt and control developing economies. His personal testimony needs further corroboration, but we know for sure that the richest nations used debts to do exactly that - to enforce terms imposed by the US and other creditor countries which required developing countries to enter the world economy on very unfavourable terms.

The big reason for the current European debt crisis is that the governments have taken on private bank debts that exploded with the financial crisis. The clearest case is Ireland which took responsibility for all that its banks owed, but it is true for all countries that are now in trouble.

Even so most countries in Europe have modest debts. Earlier this year, Spain only owed 55 % of GDP GDP
Gross Domestic Product Gross Domestic Product is an aggregate measure of total production within a given territory equal to the sum of the gross values added. The measure is notoriously incomplete; for example it does not take into account any activity that does not enter into a commercial exchange. The GDP takes into account both the production of goods and the production of services. Economic growth is defined as the variation of the GDP from one period to another. . Even the stringent Maastricht Treaty says 60% of GDP is OK. Italy and Belgium for instance are well above 100% but many countries where austerity is preached, like France, have no problem.

People tend to believe—and are told to believe by their media—that the debt of a household is the same as the debt of a country. This isn’t so. A family can’t live for long beyond its means but countries, especially in modern time have always done so. The US has not been free of debt since the 19^th century. The idea of zero national debt is a total fantasy.

Obviously, you’re better off borrowing in order to invest productively. And if you have too much debt you end up paying far too much in interest Interest An amount paid in remuneration of an investment or received by a lender. Interest is calculated on the amount of the capital invested or borrowed, the duration of the operation and the rate that has been set. to bondholders; but “sovereign debt Sovereign debt Government debts or debts guaranteed by the government. ” as it’s called needn’t be a problem.

What do you think the consequences of these policies will be?

European policies so far are disastrous! They are the same so-called “remedies” that were forced on developing countries in the 1980s, now better known as the “lost decade for development”. The austerity programmes being imposed on Greece, Ireland or Portugal come straight from the neoliberal handbook of Structural Adjustment Structural Adjustment Economic policies imposed by the IMF in exchange of new loans or the rescheduling of old loans.

Structural Adjustments policies were enforced in the early 1980 to qualify countries for new loans or for debt rescheduling by the IMF and the World Bank. The requested kind of adjustment aims at ensuring that the country can again service its external debt. Structural adjustment usually combines the following elements : devaluation of the national currency (in order to bring down the prices of exported goods and attract strong currencies), rise in interest rates (in order to attract international capital), reduction of public expenditure (’streamlining’ of public services staff, reduction of budgets devoted to education and the health sector, etc.), massive privatisations, reduction of public subsidies to some companies or products, freezing of salaries (to avoid inflation as a consequence of deflation). These SAPs have not only substantially contributed to higher and higher levels of indebtedness in the affected countries ; they have simultaneously led to higher prices (because of a high VAT rate and of the free market prices) and to a dramatic fall in the income of local populations (as a consequence of rising unemployment and of the dismantling of public services, among other factors).

IMF : http://www.worldbank.org/ Programmes (SAPs), from A to Z.

The result is savage contraction of those economies to an unheard-of degree. When radical privatisation, salary cuts, social spending wipe-outs and so on were imposed in really poor countries like Niger, they actually led to famine and mass deaths. In Europe, we have more leeway, some cushions, but Greece’s economy has already shrunk by more than 5% this year, unemployment has soared with no compensation, small businesses are failing in droves and everything in sight is being privatised.

It’s a criminal policy designed to push workers back into 19^th century, to get rid of the social benefits people fought for over many generations. As usual, the rich will escape and international capital will have a heyday with the privatisation possibilities. Ordinary people are paying twice for the financial crisis—first to bail out the banks and now to sacrifice and bring about the ruin of their own countries and livelihoods.

What is your response to those who say fault lies with Greece and its failure to control public finances?

People say “the Greeks don’t pay taxes” and that’s true for the rich who have a lot of money in Cyprus, a convenient tax haven Tax haven A territory characterized by the following five independent criteria:
(a) opacity (via bank secrecy or another mechanism such as trusts);
(b) low taxes, sometimes as low as zero for non-residents;
(c) easy regulations permitting the creation of front companies and no necessity for these companies to have a real activity on the territory;
(d) lack of cooperation with the inland revenue, customs and/or judicial departments of other countries;
(e) weak or non-existent financial regulation. Switzerland, the City of London and Luxembourg receive the majority of the capital placed in tax havens. Others exist, of course, such as the Cayman Islands, the Channel Islands, Hong Kong and other exotic locations. . A Swiss financial house reports that only 1% of Greek money in Swiss banks is declared in Greece—and only 3% for France—the Greeks aren’t alone in this game. Greece has also maintained a proportionally huge military budget. Even when the Turks—supposedly the enemy—proposed joint military expenditure reductions, the Greeks didn’t accept.

The Greek orthodox church, the country’s biggest property and landowner pays zero taxes, which makes no sense. There’s also a large black economy. And when the PASOK took over, they discovered that their predecessors had cooked the books and radically understated what the country owed.

Despite all this, we should remember that Greece represents a mere 2% of the European economy. It is just not worth this huge polarising crisis or incredible psychodrama. The Germans and the European Central Bank Central Bank The establishment which in a given State is in charge of issuing bank notes and controlling the volume of currency and credit. In France, it is the Banque de France which assumes this role under the auspices of the European Central Bank (see ECB) while in the UK it is the Bank of England.

ECB : http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Pages/home.aspx are treating this not as a straightforward economic issue of indebtedness and default but as a morality play in which the Greeks must be punished.

Even if we include Portugal and Ireland, we’re talking about a small part of the Euro zone economy. With Spain, things start getting serious; it’s about 11% of the Euro-economy and Italy—well, no one wants to contemplate that.

Obviously, austerity will only worsen economic woes—less tax revenue, more unemployment, low investment, a larger underground economy and so on. Plus enormous human suffering and possible breakup of the Euro. There has not been a single case where a country came out better off because of IMF IMF
International Monetary Fund Along with the World Bank, the IMF was founded on the day the Bretton Woods Agreements were signed. Its first mission was to support the new system of standard exchange rates.

When the Bretton Wood fixed rates system came to an end in 1971, the main function of the IMF became that of being both policeman and fireman for global capital: it acts as policeman when it enforces its Structural Adjustment Policies and as fireman when it steps in to help out governments in risk of defaulting on debt repayments.

As for the World Bank, a weighted voting system operates: depending on the amount paid as contribution by each member state. 85% of the votes is required to modify the IMF Charter (which means that the USA with 17,68% % of the votes has a de facto veto on any change).

The institution is dominated by five countries: the United States (16,74%), Japan (6,23%), Germany (5,81%), France (4,29%) and the UK (4,29%).
The other 183 member countries are divided into groups led by one country. The most important one (6,57% of the votes) is led by Belgium. The least important group of countries (1,55% of the votes) is led by Gabon and brings together African countries.

http://imf.org austerity policies.

The neoliberal economists have succeeded in erasing all memory of the 1930s when Keynesian policies were used to good advantage against the Great Depression. Instead we are faced with a festering debt problem, an economy being throttled by austerity and no hope of recovery.

Do you think Greece should have defaulted? What alternatives should Greece have followed?

The Greeks can’t pay and they will default. They already have but no one is calling it that. After all this cliff-hanging, some makeshift solution will be used to paper over the reality.

If I had been [Prime Minister] Papandreou, I would have said “Can’t pay, won’t pay.” I would have then worked out what percentage of the debt was “odious”, a legal concept meaning illegitimate, and what Greece could reasonably handle over time.

Then I would have declared that Greece would not pay X %, say half, of its debt and offered to negotiate with all the private banks to determine under what conditions Greece would pay back the rest—at longer maturities, lower interest rates and so on. The banks would have to choose between receiving zero or 50% of something. And remember they have no troops—they’re not going to invade Greece! And Greece wouldn’t even have to leave the Euro zone because the Treaties make no provisions for forcing a country to leave. That would have concentrated minds considerably.

It’s obvious all the stopgap measures won’t work in Ireland or Greece. I’m not even sure they are meant to. In the developing countries and now in Europe, debt allows creditors to exercise a kind of colonialism without an army or an imperial administration. It’s no accident that the Latin Americans prioritised paying back the IMF as soon as they could afford to. It was the only way they could start running their own economies again.

We should remember what Keynes wrote in the 1920s in the Economic Consequences of the Peace. He warned that Germany would not be able to pay its post-war debts and there would be hell to pay for this. And there was, but Germany got a completely different debt deal post World War II – which limited debt service Debt service The sum of the interests and the amortization of the capital borrowed. and interest payments radically - terms they are now unwilling to offer Greece.

Who do you think is responsible for the crisis?

It’s the financial sector plus local politicians plus European politicians plus of course the Lisbon Treaty and European Central Bank ECB
European Central Bank The European Central Bank is a European institution based in Frankfurt, founded in 1998, to which the countries of the Eurozone have transferred their monetary powers. Its official role is to ensure price stability by combating inflation within that Zone. Its three decision-making organs (the Executive Board, the Governing Council and the General Council) are composed of governors of the central banks of the member states and/or recognized specialists. According to its statutes, it is politically ‘independent’ but it is directly influenced by the world of finance.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/html/index.en.html structures that keep the Euro zone in an economic straight-jacket.

Nobody forced the French and German banks to buy so much Greek debt. The financial markets just assumed that Greek bonds were the same as German bonds: now they’ve figured out that Greek bonds are Greek and they’re determined to get back as much money as possible at the highest interest rates possible regardless of social costs.

And plenty of European governments clearly govern on behalf of their financial sector. But they are playing with fire and can yet blast open the Euro zone, at which point all bets are off.

What are the structural problems with the Euro that have contributed to the crisis?

I am a fervent European, so I want the Euro to last, but we don’t currently have the economic and social machinery to go with it. We have a common currency but don’t have a common fiscal, economic or social policies. Instead of increasing taxes, governments are competing to reduce them as in Ireland with its 12.5% corporate tax rate.

We have a ridiculous European budget, no Europe-wide taxes, no tax on financial transactions. World-wide transactions just on currencies markets are now at an astronomical $4.000.000.000.000 a day. Even if you taxed that at only 1/10.000 it would bring in $400 million a day. You could solve a lot of problems with that kind of money!

The European Central Bank is the obstacle to success, not the Euro per se. The ECB doesn’t lend to governments but to banks, at 1% or less, and then banks lend to governments—short term Greek and Irish debt has “junk” status and is now priced at 20%.

The ECB unlike every other central bank doesn’t issue Eurobonds.So we have government by the banks and the ratings agencies. We need Eurobonds not just to discourage rampant speculation against individual countries but also so that Europe can invest in large ecological and infrastructure projects no country can manage by itself.

Are there other issues in EU’s economic governance that have contributed to the crisis?

One of the reasons we fought so hard in France against the Lisbon Treaty was that it enshrined neoliberal economic policy at the heart of Europe, and set us up for the kind of crises we now face. Now the European Commission wants to examine all individual country budgets before their parliaments vote on them to make sure they meet certain standards. This is a blatant attack on democracy.

Everything under the European Commission is now judged in terms of “competitivity” which includes suicidal competition between European countries themselves. Not everyone can be Germany. In the Euro zone, government spending is still around 50% of GDP but corporations and capital want to get control over as much of that as they can. Once again, we’re being slowly dragged back into the 19^th century.

How should social movements respond to the crisis? What alternatives can we put on the table?

Get the financial sector under control, tax financial transactions, force European, especially Euro zone governments to act in solidarity with each other.

Carry out debt audits to determine how much is “odious”.

Develop a debt workout mechanism that isn’t skewed entirely in favour of creditors.

We need Eurobonds and a new charter for Europe with an ECB that’s much closer to the US Federal Reserve FED
Federal Reserve Officially, Federal Reserve System, is the United States’ central bank created in 1913 by the ’Federal Reserve Act’, also called the ’Owen-Glass Act’, after a series of banking crises, particularly the ’Bank Panic’ of 1907.

FED – decentralized central bank : http://www.federalreserve.gov/ .

Use Keynes’ bancor as the currency for trade. We’ll need another interview to talk about that!

Meanwhile, I’d be more than happy with public, non-profit Profit The positive gain yielded from a company’s activity. Net profit is profit after tax. Distributable profit is the part of the net profit which can be distributed to the shareholders. ratings agencies and governments that govern for citizens rather than for banks.