Committee for the Abolition of Illegitimate Debt

Jorge Muracciole: What is the current status of ecological debt?

Éric Toussaint: It has reached an alarming level. Temperatures and sea levels are steadily rising, and the number of individuals affected, both in the Global South and the Global North, is staggering. All available data indicate that the situation will continue to deteriorate, as the international capitalist system lacks the will to act, leaving governments unable to find viable solutions. Denialist governments, such as those led by Trump and Milei, disregard the magnitude of the crisis. Northern countries have accrued debts to the peoples of the South; they must acknowledge the historical global ecological debt they have incurred and accept their obligation to provide financial compensation.

Jorge Muracciole: Is this approach feasible?

Éric Toussaint: If we examine the timeline, we see that the debt incurred by Northern countries, in relation to what can be measured concerning climate change, the ecological crisis, and the large-scale greenhouse effect, began with the industrial revolution in Europe during the 1820s and 1830s and continued in the United States. This pattern represents a two-century process of greenhouse gas accumulation, specific to capitalist industrial development. Throughout the 20^th and 21^st centuries, other countries on the capitalist periphery have contributed to these emissions. It is evident that the workers who laboured during the 19^th century, enduring extreme exploitation with working hours exceeding 12 per day in unhealthy conditions, as well as those who suffered inhumane child labour, cannot be held responsible for the ecological damage wrought by their governments and private companies, which were often supported by repressive measures. The response from the labour movement has varied significantly. Under no circumstances can we hold European proletarians accountable for the polluting civilising projects of their bourgeoisies. Likewise, peasants are not responsible for the development of the capitalist model in agricultural production; rather, they are victims of that model. The true culprits are the governments that serve the capitalist class and its large private enterprises.

Jorge Muracciole: In a text from early 2025, you assert that dominant capitalist groups have depleted natural reserves and polluted the planet through excessive fossil fuel consumption and overproduction, thereby imposing a misguided form of neoliberal globalisation that defeats the interests of the peoples of the Global South.

Éric Toussaint: We can identify large industrial companies that have existed for over a century and that have relentlessly exploited natural resources in Europe and North America and, subsequently, in the Global South.

It is essential to highlight the responsibility of large companies that emerged in the 19^th or early 20^th century. Notable examples include Coca-Cola (founded in 1886), Pepsi-Cola (1898), Monsanto (1901), and Cargill (1865) in the agri-food sector; BP (1909), Shell (1907), Exxon Mobil (1870), Chevron (1879), and Total (1924) in the oil sector; ThyssenKrupp (1811) and Arcelor Mittal (a union of various groups founded in the first half of the 20^th century) in the steel and metals sector; and Volkswagen (1937), General Motors (1908), Ford (1903), and Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi (a group of three companies established between 1870 and 1932) in the automotive sector. Rio Tinto (1873) and BHP Billiton (1895) in the mining sector have had, and continue to have, a significant responsibility for greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. If we were to calculate the total amount of GHG generated by their activities since their inception, we would realise that they account for a substantial proportion of what has accumulated in the atmosphere, resembling a veritable time bomb that has now exploded.

More recently, we should also consider the detrimental environmental impacts of GAFAM (Google, Apple, Facebook, Meta, Amazon, and Microsoft), X, etc., and their vast data centres, which are expanding further with the advent of artificial intelligence. Additionally, we must include a number of private and, in some cases, public companies from so-called emerging capitalist countries that contribute harmfully to the environment. This list features Gazprom and Rosneft in Russia, Sinopec and PetroChina in China, Petrobras and Vale do Rio Doce in Brazil, and Coal India and Tata in India, among others.

Ultimately, whether in the Global North or the Global South, the capitalist mode of production bears responsibility for the destruction of the planet. Instead of attributing blame to humanity for the ecological crisis by referencing the Anthropocene, it would be more appropriate to hold the capitalist mode of production accountable and employ the term Capitalocene, as advocated by the CADTM and others.

Jorge Muracciole: And today?

Éric Toussaint: The impact of the extractive industry is taking place apace with globalisation, particularly in the quest for rare earth elements and lithium for the digital telephony and battery sectors in regions such as the triangle formed by southern Bolivia, northwest Argentina, and northern Chile. We could compile an extensive list of examples illustrating the environmental and human consequences.
Jorge Muracciole: The mainstream media conceals these facts.
Éric Toussaint: The solution to this issue is fundamentally incompatible with the capitalist mode of production. There is no viable solution within the framework of “green capitalism”. We require a policy that fundamentally breaks from the capitalist system.

Jorge Muracciole: That won’t be easy.

Éric Toussaint: This year, various indigenous peoples from different regions of the world will have the opportunity to debate this issue, notably at COP 30, which will be held in Belém, Brazil, from 10 to 21 November. The indigenous peoples of the Americas, along with delegations from around the globe, will oppose the official summit, which is unlikely to provide any real solutions. They will also challenge the productivist and extractivist policies of the Lula government, which aims to exploit more oil, including in environmentally sensitive areas.

Jorge Muracciole: What is the situation in the areas most affected by extractivist productivism in relation to this summit?

Éric Toussaint: Asia, particularly South Asia, which includes countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, has a combined population of 400 million. In Pakistan, floods in 2022 displaced nearly 30% of the population. A similar situation is evident in East Africa, where floods, coupled with the activities of paramilitary groups funded by transnational corporations, impact countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo, Kenya, Tanzania, and Mozambique, which are involved in the extraction of coltan, copper, uranium, oil, and other resources.

Jorge Muracciole: In North America, too.

Éric Toussaint: Indeed, we are witnessing uncontrollable rainfall leading to significant flooding, as well as prolonged droughts and wildfires in places like California, Hollywood, São Paulo, and Quito. These phenomena are the by-products of a civilisational project that is driving climate change in the global North, thereby impacting the entire planet. It is imperative to implement a degrowth strategy in Northern countries to substantially mitigate the repercussions of this rampant growth. Additionally, we need to transform the lifestyles of Northern populations; for example, this could involve reducing reliance on private vehicles. Conversely, in Southern countries, many individuals require growth to reorganise their economies and integrate elements of degrowth in certain production sectors while fostering growth in others. For instance, enhancing production is essential to improving housing conditions, ensuring access to electricity, establishing sewage systems, and providing affordable running water for the populace, as well as investing in education.

Jorge Muracciole: To implement this, a significant shift in consciousness is essential.

Éric Toussaint : Merely changing our culture is insufficient; we must also drastically reduce the activities of extractive companies and limit the use of natural resources beneath the earth’s surface. It is vital to challenge and transform the existing modes of production and property relations. Energy and extractive industries must come under public control. The obligation to repay debts fuels the strong impetus to export more raw materials from peripheral countries. Such debts must be cancelled immediately.

Translated by CADTM.